Stat caps

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Savacc
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Re: Stat caps

Post by Savacc » Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:46 am

The caps pretty much have to be applied before the resource is averaged with any others. So I dont think that value over 650 is going to help you. Well, in a sense it will, since the value will be converted to 1000. But the same thing will happen with a steel of 650, it will be converted to 1000 and then averaged with your other resources.

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Re: Stat caps

Post by SpaceyDaFrog » Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:58 pm

The caps pretty much have to be applied before the resource is averaged with any others. So I dont think that value over 650 is going to help you. Well, in a sense it will, since the value will be converted to 1000. But the same thing will happen with a steel of 650, it will be converted to 1000 and then averaged with your other resources.

Ok, so what I get from this is the following order:

1) Stat cap is applied (if over stat cap, treat it as equal to stat cap)

2) Expertise Bonus applied (if available)

3) Average out the resources

4) Check if Average is equal to 100 (if attempting to make a 100% item)

Sorry, this is coming from a computer programming perspective hehe. So then with our lovely Arveshium steel example, with lets say a CD of 700 it would go like this:

Compare 700 to 650. Whoops, too big. You're now 650.

Oooo. you get a bonus 4% to your resource quality. You're now 676.

Awww, you need a 2nd resource for the schematic and it only has CD 600. 600 < 650 ?, stay the same

Bonus applied: 600 -> 624.

Overall? ( ( 676 / 650 ) + ( 624 / 650 ) / 2 = 100% *ding ding ding* We have a winner! You can now make a 100% item.


Is this correct, or is the Expertise Bonus applied before enforcing the Stat Cap? :D
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Re: Stat caps

Post by Zimoon » Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:42 pm

The expertize bonus is applied after everything else.

I believe the formulas read in the Beginners Guide for Traders >> Power crafting are all accurate, is there a reason to update or rectify them?

/Zimoon

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Re: Stat caps

Post by SpaceyDaFrog » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:02 pm

From what I saw, no, that was pretty straightforward. But what isn't shown in the guide is the interaction of two different resources in the same schematic, nor the weights based on quantity (if any).

I.E. Hypothetical Schematic requiring 500000 Metal and 1 Wood, where the only stat being measured is OQ. Do they have equal weights? would Having wood at OQ 962+ be as important, more important, or less important than having Metal OQ 962+?
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Re: Stat caps

Post by Zimoon » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:08 pm

Actually the weight of them is there, both in the abstract formula and in the examples. Read the examples again and see how 25 units of Colat Iron is used versus 15 units of Lubricating Oil.

It also reads
The same is then true for the amounts different resources contribute. If both Ferrous Metal and Non-Ferrous Metal is called for, 1000 units and 200 units each, the stats on the Ferrous Metal out-weighs the Non-Ferrous in importance with 5 to 1. I.e. you can get away with good copper if you have splendid Iron, but not vice versa.
In your example the 500,000 units of Metal outweighs Wood with 500,000 to 1, hence even if Wood were 1000 and Metal only 900, the end result would be 900.0019999600007999840003199936 ;)

/Zimoon

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Re: Stat caps

Post by SpaceyDaFrog » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:32 pm

*bonks forehead* Ok, so attempting to understand advanced crafting information isn't something to do first thing in the morning when I'm still half asleep.

*bows down in submission* Thanks for showing me the error in my ways. LOL
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Re: Stat caps

Post by Zimoon » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:35 pm

That explains your flat forehead :P

/Z

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Savacc
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Re: Stat caps

Post by Savacc » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:51 pm

SpaceyDaFrog wrote:
The caps pretty much have to be applied before the resource is averaged with any others. So I dont think that value over 650 is going to help you. Well, in a sense it will, since the value will be converted to 1000. But the same thing will happen with a steel of 650, it will be converted to 1000 and then averaged with your other resources.

Ok, so what I get from this is the following order:

1) Stat cap is applied (if over stat cap, treat it as equal to stat cap)

2) Expertise Bonus applied (if available)

3) Average out the resources

4) Check if Average is equal to 100 (if attempting to make a 100% item)

Sorry, this is coming from a computer programming perspective hehe. So then with our lovely Arveshium steel example, with lets say a CD of 700 it would go like this:

Compare 700 to 650. Whoops, too big. You're now 650.

Oooo. you get a bonus 4% to your resource quality. You're now 676.

Awww, you need a 2nd resource for the schematic and it only has CD 600. 600 < 650 ?, stay the same

Bonus applied: 600 -> 624.

Overall? ( ( 676 / 650 ) + ( 624 / 650 ) / 2 = 100% *ding ding ding* We have a winner! You can now make a 100% item.


Is this correct, or is the Expertise Bonus applied before enforcing the Stat Cap? :D
I think Spacy understands now where he/she went wrong, but just for the record, for anyone skimming this thread, the above is wrong.

What really happens is that the Arveshium Steel with CD 700 is converted to 650, the cap for steel.
Then the formula is: 650 * 1000/650 = 1000
The second resource, also a steel is CD 600
Then the formula is: 600 * 1000/650 = 923.07692
Those two resource values are rounded: (1000 + 923.07692)/2 = 961.53845
Then the resource quality increase from expertise is applied: 961.53845 * 1.04 = 999.99998

These resources will not quite make it to 100% if CD is the only Experimental property involved.

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Re: Stat caps

Post by Zimoon » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:56 pm

This is true if equal amount of each the resources are used, other wise we also need to weight them. Before the bonus is applied. Me tired of all thinking become.

/Z

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Re: Stat caps

Post by SpaceyDaFrog » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:04 am

Oh boy did I pick some problem numbers. Depending on the precision (how many decimals you extend the numbers out to) you could get equation to give out 1000 and not 999.99998 (assuming equal weights). Now, I know this point is dead, so I'm not going to bother going over all the numbers again. From a quick search through Vendors for those ever-popular 44.999992 Crafting Stations, I believe SOE uses *at least* a precision of 6 decimal places (I'm looking at a 44.985784 right now)

Could result in very slight errors in crafting programs if the precision isn't the same.

Oh well, I agree with you - we've beat this horse dead, and then stepped on it a couple times, and then pointed at it and laughed. Time for a new randomness to bug me. :shock:
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Re: Stat caps

Post by NarfBlinko » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:29 am

Savacc wrote:
SpaceyDaFrog wrote:
The caps pretty much have to be applied before the resource is averaged with any others. So I dont think that value over 650 is going to help you. Well, in a sense it will, since the value will be converted to 1000. But the same thing will happen with a steel of 650, it will be converted to 1000 and then averaged with your other resources.
Ok, so what I get from this is the following order:

1) Stat cap is applied (if over stat cap, treat it as equal to stat cap)
2) Expertise Bonus applied (if available)
3) Average out the resources
4) Check if Average is equal to 100 (if attempting to make a 100% item)

Sorry, this is coming from a computer programming perspective hehe. So then with our lovely Arveshium steel example, with lets say a CD of 700 it would go like this:

Compare 700 to 650. Whoops, too big. You're now 650.

Oooo. you get a bonus 4% to your resource quality. You're now 676.

Awww, you need a 2nd resource for the schematic and it only has CD 600. 600 < 650 ?, stay the same

Bonus applied: 600 -> 624.

Overall? ( ( 676 / 650 ) + ( 624 / 650 ) / 2 = 100% *ding ding ding* We have a winner! You can now make a 100% item.

Is this correct, or is the Expertise Bonus applied before enforcing the Stat Cap? :D
I think Spacy understands now where he/she went wrong, but just for the record, for anyone skimming this thread, the above is wrong.

What really happens is that the Arveshium Steel with CD 700 is converted to 650, the cap for steel.
Then the formula is: 650 * 1000/650 = 1000
The second resource, also a steel is CD 600
Then the formula is: 600 * 1000/650 = 923.07692
Those two resource values are rounded: (1000 + 923.07692)/2 = 961.53845
Then the resource quality increase from expertise is applied: 961.53845 * 1.04 = 999.99998
These resources will not quite make it to 100% if CD is the only Experimental property involved.

I believe the bit in red is not correct, based on all the testing I did for Chapter 8. Now, this might be something new that has come along recently, but, from my testing, that line should be:

Then the resource quality increase from expertise is applied: 961.53845 + 40 = 1001.53845, which is treated as 1000.

PS: It is really nice to write on forums that WORK. *grin*
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Re: Stat caps

Post by Savacc » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:09 am

Ive read your posts on this subject on the "other" forum. Ild like to see the schematics you worked on that led you to this conclusion. Or some other testing done to support your assertion. You could very well be right. Ill admit I just took SOE at their word when they said they were giving us a 4% increase to resource quality, and assumed it worked the way I thought. I can see now, that your interpretation of what they said, works as well as mine. Its time now to see if we can find which way it really works, either by testing, or a dev telling us how they did it.

Two other issues I wish you would address for me, You claim a "Lucky" amazing adds 8.4, not 8.05 like a normal amazing. Ild like to see your research on that. From what I saw, while crafting last night, I tend to believe you on this one, but how did you come to 8.4? And have you looked into what I found on Capaciter Subcomponants and Weapon Subcomponants?

Hey, did I say welcome to this forum, Im really glad to see you contribute here and hope you keep coming back? :D

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Re: Stat caps

Post by Zimoon » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:59 am

I will wait a little before I update the guide with the 4% bonus, not that I doubt you but I hesitate hastily changing anything. I am trying to find schematics I can play around with but not so many simple schematics show me all the ugly decimals all the way.

When I thought about this yesterday, yes, adding 40 out of 1000 is like adding 4%. But in reality everything will be higher than 4%, sometimes a lot higher. Not that it matter much but consider a weighed average of 400 plus 40, that is 10%, 800 plus 40 is 5%, 960 plus 40 is 4.16666666667%.

I also trusted SOE for the 4% and never read any other input on the topic from trusted players confirmed to be number geeks by nature ;)

On the other topic, Critical Success aka *Lucky* amazing, I just stole the number from the official SOE/SWG Structure Trader board. At the time I played Chef and to my knowledge there is no schematic that shows decimals good enough to see the difference between 8.05 and 8.4. It would be great to verify this positive though, greedy me :D

As always, some numbers and a way to get these two verified would not hurt.

Yes, welcome and now let's have fun here ;)

/Zimoon

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Re: Stat caps

Post by SpaceyDaFrog » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:41 pm

Sorry ahead of time, no screenshots.

Now I know that I've previously shown that sometimes I don't grasp the fine details, but I decided to attempt yet again.

As a structure trader, I have access to one of the schematics that is known to show the crazy decimal places - Crafting stations

Using 940 CD copper and having the +4% xp box, I made two Starship Crafting Stations without any of the optional modules inplace.

Starting values for both times were -6.444602.

I had over both attempts of 17 Great Successes, 1 Critical Failure (on first attempt), and 1 Amazing Success.

I'm not counting the 18th Great Success on my 2nd attempt because the values might be off due to reaching the cap for the resources used.

On average, the Great Successes increased the value by +2.100000286. Given that we're holding the Great Success as a +7% increase, this gives 1% to be equivalent to a +0.3000000408 value - expanded out to 100% gives a maximum of 30.00000408 (~30 crafting station, this fits with previous observations)

BEGIN EDIT: Whoops. Forgot that it's a +30 difference from base value of -15... so ranges between -15 and +15, which is the observed values (not +30.0 crafting station with no mods)
END EDIT

The 1 Amazing Success raised the value by +2.415 (this amazing success did not happen at the very last experimentation point, so I'm assuming that the full increase was applied)

Given that 1% is equivalent to .3000000408, we'd find that the +2.415 increase due to Amazing Success would be equivalent to an 8.049998905% increase. Ending value of 14.39998 with displayed percentage as 97%


So crafting guru's, is my math sound or did I ignore a detail again? :mrgreen:
Last edited by SpaceyDaFrog on Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stat caps

Post by SpaceyDaFrog » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:49 pm

Here are the notes that I wrote down for both attempts:

Starting Value try 1: -6.444602
Great : -4.344602
Great : -2.244601
Critical Fail : -6.444602
Great : -4.344602
Great : -2.244601
Great : -0.144601
Great : +1.955399
Great : +4.055399
Great : +6.155399
Great : +8.2554

Finished try 1

Starting Value try 2: -6.444602
Great : -4.344602
Great : -2.244601
Great : -0.144601
Great : +1.955399
Amazing : +4.370399
Great : +6.470399
Great : +8.570399
Great : +10.6704
Great : +12.7704
Great : +14.399998

I will try this same thing with some of the Chapter 8 Schematics that I recently received to see if there is any difference between the old and the new
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