Question on crafting quality.

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dcwzero
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Question on crafting quality.

Post by dcwzero » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:40 pm

Hello ive had this question for along time and now its a good time as any to ask it here goes.

If am making say a ship chasis(requires steel and fiberplast for example) and the affecting attributes Oq,Heat,Mal,Shock, and UT

And i use a steel that meets all the stats with a 950+ but doesnt meet the Mal. Can i use fiberplast that meets the 950+ mark in the mal slot and still get a capped (or near capped product)??


I would appreciated all the help!

p.s
i know the guide says meet it only once but am a little slow and am still confussed if the above scenario is what those words mean. :oops:

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thegreywolfe
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Post by thegreywolfe » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:49 pm

This post would be better placed in the Shipwright forum here.
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Savacc
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Post by Savacc » Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:18 am

Ok I moved it, now Ill answer it.

You are operating under a couple of misconceptions that I can see.
  • 1. to "cap" a line you need 962+, not 950+. The reason is that with expertise, we get a +4% to resource quality and 962 + 4% will exceed 100% that allows you to "cap" that line.
    2. When Z says in his guide to meet the stat requirement only once, he means if its possible to meet it only once, then do so. Making chassis its not going to be possible.
    3. Making chassis takes more then just steel and fiberplast, it also takes ore, alluminum and inert petrochemical, and possibly copper and iron.
    4. What happens is, you take the HR stats of all those resources and average them togather. You also weigh them by the amount. For instance chassis require far more steel then any resource, so the stats for steel weigh more in the calculations. Then you do the same thing for MA, then OQ etc.
Back to your original question. You have a steel with lots of good stats, but poor MA. You have a fiberplast with good MA (actually I dont think fiberplast has a MA stat, but lets say it does). The good MA of your fiberplast will help bring up the average when combined with the steel MA. Do you follow me so far?

Now to throw in a huge amount of confussion. The reason the MA on steel is so low is because steel has a "resource cap" on MA. In fact the "resouce cap" on steel is only 400. That "resource cap" is taken into account when the MA is figured. So a steel with MA of 386 is equal to a fiberplast with MA of 962 (assuming MA on fiberplast is uncapped). Z also explains this in his Guide to Traders, in the advanced crafting section. Are you still following me? If not, tell us where I am confussing you and maybe someone else can explain it better then me. :idea:

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Post by Laidbacca » Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:24 pm

The MA is still good enough believe it or not, as long as the steel in question is not either hardened arveshium or bicorb crystal. The server when calculating the final assembly will apply the corresponding cap and then weigh your resource against it. As the normal type steels cap is 400 then you are very close to its cap, therefore that steel will be weighed accordingly.
Fibreplast does have an MA stat, using one with a high MA and poor ut,oq,sr will in fact pull the assembly % down on the chassis you are trying to make.
One thing i do when using all resources during crafting is have the averages turned on, you can turn them on ingame thru options, then interface, scroll down and check the four boxes for UT,SR,MA,OQ. I know my resources by there average numbers then when i craft. These four stats are the main ones for making higher end chassis with decent mass. When you now look at a resource in your inventory it should now display a number ie. its average for those 4 stats, any resource that has over 800 average will make you a pretty good chassis, over 850 is extremely good. For steel an average of 830 is exceptional (the MA stat tends to drag this number down). 750 average resources are still good for chassis, more so for ones intended for pilots who are grinding thru squadrons. High end mass chassis are the ones PvP'ers will want, these will fetch a premium price on most servers.

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Post by Zimoon » Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:58 pm

Yes, quality while crafting is confusing at start, but as soon as the clouds are scattered the sun shines ;)

In this thread we have merged a few different topics now, but yes, they are interleaved, or vowen together, in the crafting. I will take it note by note:

Meeting a stat only once only makes sense if it is possible. Most often it is not possible, almost never in the more complex items. Furthermore, it only makes sense if the resource meeting that stat is better than any other other resource for the same stat. Lubricating Oil tends to be a great resource when a schematic slot calls for Chemical and the other resources are great.

It is the each one resource slot in the schematic that sets the possible cap for that slot, not the resource you actually are using. If a slot calls for Steel and CD is one of the stats called for, then the cap for CD is set to 650, no matter which type of steel you use. If you use a so called JTL* Steel (Crystallized Bicorbantium Steel or Hardened Arveshium Steel) which has no cap for CD you will easily find a steel that gives 100% on CD for that slot. If you on the other hand use Rhodium Steel you can never ever get CD for that slot better than 13% since that steel has a cap on CD of 85, but the slot has a cap of 650.

Only if a slot calls for a particular resource class it is that resource class' cap that is considered, otherwise it is always the cap of the more generic resource class that is called for that is used in the formula, no matter what sub-class you use.

Finally, while we tend to say it is the average of a stat that is used, the correct term should rather be the "weighted average" since how much of each resource is used is also considered. Using 100 units of a steel and 25 units of a chemical gives the steel 100/125 vs. 25/125 == 4/5 vs. 1/5 weight. That is, steel in this example is 4 times as important.

All of this combined makes crafting so much fun, it is not just to take some gold ore, silver ore, or whatever, and melt it and get some stuff that always is the same and that always will produce the same weapons, as many other games have it with crafting. SWG calls for some thinking and each crafter can combine resources in his/her fashion. But yes, the learning curve is sometimes steep and that is the reason I advise against speed-grinding.

* JTL "resource" since these resource classes were introduced with the JTL expansion in 2004. To my understanding none of them are capped.

/Zimoon

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dcwzero
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Post by dcwzero » Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:23 pm

okay first of all am sorry for posting in wrong section. multi tasking at work and posting a question = dumbness :shock:

second i know chassis needs more than steel and fiberplast i was just try to dumb it down and keep it simple.

and finally thank you all SOOO much i understood everything i just had that question because of the words "meet it once"in the guide.

But thx for the answers and i learned a couple more things just reading the answers =D.

Thank YOU ALL FOR THE ANSWERS!!! YOUR THE BEST!! :D

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Post by Zimoon » Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:25 pm

No need for apologies :)

I guess you mean: "if possible, meet each stat only once". Notice the initial two words :P

/Z

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Savacc
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Post by Savacc » Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:17 am

On where to put your post, actually I think it could have been in either the General Crafting, or the Shipwright Crafting Forum. It was a general crafting question, but used a shipwright schem as an example. I only moved it because TheGreyWolf suggested it, and Im the Shipwright Forum Moderator, so Ill take any excuse to pad my own forum with more posts. :lol:

I dont know if you saw this thread, but you might find it informative, we discuss many of the same issues, but use missile pacs as an example instead of chassis.
http://www.swgcraft.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=635

You may notice I requested that that thread be moved. My moderation powers only work in the Crafting forums and this thread is in the Developers forum, so it will take someone with mod powers in the Developer Forum to move it. :wink:

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Re: Question on crafting quality.

Post by Jed » Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:16 pm

well this thread is over my head

and yes I speed grinded, I figured what is the difference between knowing nothing at level 20 or knowing nothing at level 90,,,either way you still know nothing at least at 90 you have more options to better learn.

You say the schemitic sets the cap for a particular trait in a resource. you used CD as an example: My question would be simply how do you know that CD is the most important resource out of all them for that particular raw material and how do you know what the cap is?
what about the other resources steel has extra how much do they weight in and how do you know? When i ask this question the answer is normally that cap guide, so I harvest some steel on Mustfar and try to find it on that cap guide and its not there.

I made a trader for a few reason

1) i wanted a vendor to sell things on. I register and enbable vendor search put stuff on it pay maintence and the stuff i have DOES NOT show up on bazzar searches--complete failure and I dont know what else to do

2) I wanted to re my own space loot---thank god this is an easy one--sucess

3) I wanted to craft the new reward engine as well as the new gun boat.--Failure I think.

I dont have the time or the willingness to try to run math forumla's just to determine of my one hour search for a resource is going to be good for my gun ship. I mean you can run around surveying for hours tying to find a high consentration of a material harvest it and it can be low quality?

I read that mustafar was the best place to get resources for ship wrights, so, let me ask it plainly this way.

If I get all my resources from mustafar, (not knowing if they are good or bad) drink wine and get some ent buffs, should i craft my gun boat and my engine I bought from the new station or

would it be better to just hire someone to build it for me? Meaning will my stuff potentional suck cause I dont understand how resources work or will it not make that big a difference?

oh and if i could sneak in an "experiment question" when i make something i can "expermient" I doint know what i am doing i normally hit a few of the buttons to make them turn green, green normally means good right? then i hit the button, it does some things, then i cant click anything else so I say ok "make" then I get this "you sure you want to make it you have 7 more experiments left" --well no i am not sure but, it wont let me click anything else so I guess i am done either way...... I am confused by this

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Re: Question on crafting quality.

Post by Zimoon » Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:56 pm

Jed wrote:well this thread is over my head

and yes I speed grinded, I figured what is the difference between knowing nothing at level 20 or knowing nothing at level 90,,,either way you still know nothing at least at 90 you have more options to better learn.

And way more to be puzzled over ;)

You say the schemitic sets the cap for a particular trait in a resource. you used CD as an example: My question would be simply how do you know that CD is the most important resource out of all them for that particular raw material and how do you know what the cap is?

I take Bofa Treat (an elementary food given every Novice Trader) as an example, it reads:
Experimental Nutritional Value
Nutritional Value
Overall Quality 33%
Potential Energy 66%
Nutritional Value is read "power" in SWG-ish. Here the schematic reads that OQ and PE are both important for this particular "experimental line", the power line. PE has 66% weight and OQ has 33% weight. In this schematic both Cereal and Organic is asked for (the Cereal can of course be used in both slots as Cereal is an Organic sub-class). Looking in the list of known caps I see the neither of PE nor OQ has a cap for Cereal. Only if Cereal should have had a cap it would be considered.

However, if you now try the very best Wild Rice (a Cereal) you can find it may has PE at 700. You will not find a higher PE for Wild Rice since it has a cap at 700. So your rice has perfect PE, but since the schematic calls for Cereal that doesn't matter, Cereal has no cap on PE. You rather try another kind of Cereal that has no cap, Domesticated Rice for example.

Notice that the parent classes never has a more narrow cap than the "widest" range from a sub-class. As for example the two kinds of Rices discussed, since Dom Rice has no cap on PE then Rice cannot have a cap on PE and neither can Cereal.

Hence, which stats should be considered in each particular case is read in the schematic. Sometimes several "lines" must be considered making the choice of resources even more trickier.

However, even though almost all items can be experimented on many of them really have no quality that affects game play. Take a quick look at Savacc's Architect FAQ in the Structure forum and you will see that it is not many items an Architect needs great resources for, but those that require quality are the pickier. This knowledge comes over time, it is not read in the schematic but from experience and reading the forums.


what about the other resources steel has extra how much do they weight in and how do you know? When i ask this question the answer is normally that cap guide, so I harvest some steel on Mustfar and try to find it on that cap guide and its not there.

I don't understand the question here, I blame the late night at my location and that English is not my native tongue. As I mentioned before, pick an easy schematic, why not Camp Batteries, the only item where quality matters for camps, the better quality the longer the camp stays. Try a few different steels and non-ferrous metals with different OQ (the only stat that matters in these) and apply the stats and the number of units in the formulas in the power crafting section of the beginners guide. A lousy example maybe sine OQ has no cap in any resource class.

Then find some schematics that calls for two stats that must be good and play around with these. Applying what you read to some simple practicing usually lets the knowledge sink in. Personally, in spite of having written several guides by now, I am a slow player, not slow learner but player and I prefer to learn by practice over learning by theory.


I made a trader for a few reason

1) i wanted a vendor to sell things on. I register and enbable vendor search put stuff on it pay maintence and the stuff i have DOES NOT show up on bazzar searches--complete failure and I dont know what else to do

That should work. May I ask some silly questions: At the Bazaar, are you really looking at the tab named Vendor Location? Are there many pages so your items are listed at one of the latest pages?

Tip: craft an item with a silly name and go to the vendor location search and filter for that name, does the item show up then?


2) I wanted to re my own space loot---thank god this is an easy one--sucess

Cool, and over time you may be a great SW!

3) I wanted to craft the new reward engine as well as the new gun boat.--Failure I think.

Probably not failure, but not a great idea as long as you don't have the necessary resources stacked, a great SW suit, and the knowledge to avoid failure and to achieve success.

I dont have the time or the willingness to try to run math forumla's just to determine of my one hour search for a resource is going to be good for my gun ship. I mean you can run around surveying for hours tying to find a high consentration of a material harvest it and it can be low quality?

That is why many players use the Current Resources listings at this sites main page. But since they are user driven it is good practice to sub,it and take part yourself too :)

I read that mustafar was the best place to get resources for ship wrights, so, let me ask it plainly this way.

This is since Mustafar not only have really high, or no upper caps, these resources also has high lower caps which effectively grants the stats to always be above a minimum level. Or differently put, the average resource quality is granted to always be great at Mustafar.

If I get all my resources from mustafar, (not knowing if they are good or bad) drink wine and get some ent buffs, should i craft my gun boat and my engine I bought from the new station or

would it be better to just hire someone to build it for me? Meaning will my stuff potentional suck cause I dont understand how resources work or will it not make that big a difference?

Since you seem to have more to learn I would advise you to ask a skilled SW. Possibly you could mine a lot of great resources yourself and that way get a good rebate. Otherwise wait until you feel comfortable and know that you know what you are doing.

oh and if i could sneak in an "experiment question" when i make something i can "expermient" I doint know what i am doing i normally hit a few of the buttons to make them turn green, green normally means good right? then i hit the button, it does some things, then i cant click anything else so I say ok "make" then I get this "you sure you want to make it you have 7 more experiments left" --well no i am not sure but, it wont let me click anything else so I guess i am done either way...... I am confused by this

All crafting is done in two phases when you use an elite crafting tool and are standing close to the appropriate crafting station:

1) The assembly phase which puts together your resources and components into a "first attempt". The cap for the maximum result from this phase is 29% which is possible to get with perfect resources and at least a Great Success during the assembly.

2) The experimentation phase which is the only way to boost the outcome. Each one of these boxes, 10 or more when you are a master, can be used up one-by-one, a-few-at-a-time, or all-at-once, normally the middle way is to prefer. Each box get its worth from the dice roll when you click "run experiment" and the values are listed in the guide. Assume you had selected 3 boxes and you got an Amazing, then 3x8.05=24.15 is added to the initial value. Next time you selected 2 boxes and got a Great Success which is 2x7=14 added to the accumulated result. And so forth.

If you skip remaining boxes you cannot improve on the final result no more. If you have achieved maximum result and have remaining boxes, then you cannot improve the result no more. If your resources are not good enough you will see that you are not allowed to experiment anymore but the bar does not reach the theoretical maximum but only for what the resources allowed for.
Replies in red

/Zimoon

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Savacc
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Re: Question on crafting quality.

Post by Savacc » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:58 pm

Not sure how much I can add to what Z said, but have a couple things to say.

Zed, do you realize you replyed to a thread a year old? For the most part everything in the thread is still valid.

Z neglected to point you to his Guide for Beginning Traders, so I will, I think it would be very helpful for you to read it.
http://www.swgcraft.co.uk/forums/viewto ... ?f=6&t=460

Shipwright is probably the hardest profession for someone who has never crafted in SWG to learn. By contrast, Architect, the other half of Structures Traders, is the easiest. If you read my Shipwright FAQ, you would see that I recommend a Shipwright start with Architect before trying Shipwright.

Lots of Shipwrights just do REing. Unless you are willing to spend months learning the perofession, and gathering resources, you would be better off having an established Shipwright make your "once in a lifetime" reward schematics.

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Savacc
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Re: Question on crafting quality.

Post by Savacc » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:59 pm

:oops: :evil:

Jed
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Re: Question on crafting quality.

Post by Jed » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:14 pm

No I did not know it was a year old. Sorry about that.

You guys are very patient and knownledgeable, Thanks for your responses and help I am going to read this a few times and practice some more.

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