BER

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Rain
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BER

Post by Rain » Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:20 pm

Hi,

Is there an updated list for all harvestors and generators max BER?

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Savacc
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Re: BER

Post by Savacc » Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:53 pm

Rain wrote:Hi,

Is there an updated list for all harvestors and generators max BER?
Personals 5, Wind 10
Mediums 11, Solar and Geothermal 15
Heavies 14, Fusions 19
Elites 44

Ill add this to the FAQ

Rain
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Post by Rain » Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:32 pm

Thank you, I appreciate your help very much!

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balazsk
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Post by balazsk » Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:11 pm

Hi,

I have 2 questions.

1. Listed BERs mean what? The max you can achieve or some kind of basic value that in given circumstances can be surpassed?

2. I'm currently at level 47, I have spent quite a few points in the Architect Expertise tree (Dexterity, Hypothesis and Advanced Theory) and the resources I'm using are quite good (not the best there is, though). Nevertheless, I'm getting initial crafting results on harvesters that in my opinion are rather bad. With such a lousy start, I can't get very high with experimentation either, meaning extraction rates nowhere near those listed in an earlier post.

What's the solution here?

Karesz

Holden
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Post by Holden » Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:46 pm

balazsk wrote:1. Listed BERs mean what? The max you can achieve or some kind of basic value that in given circumstances can be surpassed?
Listed BER is the base extraction rate of the harvester. The actual BER will depend on expertise, entertainer buff, and resource concentration when placed.

The formula is:

BER * (1 + expertise bonus + entertainer buff) * 1.50 * concentration

The 1.50 is a bonus to harvesting that the devs gave us when they took away the ability to have multiple admins on a harvester.

The entertainer buff is .01-.05, the expertise boost .15 or .30.

So a fully buffed trader with harvester expertise places a 44BER harvester on an 84% concentration. The actual extraction rate would be 74.
balazsk wrote:2. I'm currently at level 47, (...)
What's the solution here?
Getting to level 86 or so. You'll have more experimentation points, and you'll start off at a higher initial value (should be 29% for capped harvs). With the Theory expertise bonus point, you can start capping BER at a slightly lower level.

It usually takes 10 experimentation points to cap a single line at 99%, and for max BER, it also takes at least one amazing success. In theory, if you get at least 7 points of amazing success on experimentation, it only takes 9 points to cap.

To max out BER, you'll also need the four points of resource bonus (add 4% to resource value) and resources that have an average HR/SR/UT higher than 961.

(If HR+SR+2xUT > 3844, you're good to go.)

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Post by Zimoon » Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:08 pm

balazsk wrote:Hi,

I have 2 questions....
Welcome around Balazsk.

since you are new I will not pull out my "whip" but please do not "necro" old threads in the future. Even if you should at times have questions regarding an old thread (older than about 3 - 4 weeks) it is always better to start a new thread and perhaps just copy&paste some text into the new thread.

This is since we do not want old and possibly false data to bubble up again, nor do we want heated debates at fire again, etc.

As a new trader, very much welcome around. Throw away all the questions you feel for. And maybe have a look at the Beginners Guide for Traders. Your question on BER and many more is answered there ;)

/Zimoon

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balazsk
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Post by balazsk » Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:14 pm

Zimoon wrote:And maybe have a look at the Beginners Guide for Traders. Your question on BER and many more is answered there ;)

/Zimoon
Actually, it's not. So keep your whip where it is - my question was regarding the BER of a harvester IN THE CRAFTING PHASE, NOT IN THE PLACEMENT PHASE. I know very well the connection between resource concentration and actual extraction rate.

I'll shoot again: you say in the referred guide that the max BER for a solar generator is 15 - I take it that it means that's the maximum you can achieve. With good resources and - I"ll agree to that - not the maximum experimentation points I can't get past the 9 mark.

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Post by Zimoon » Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:46 pm

balazsk wrote:Actually, it's not. So keep your whip where it is - my question was regarding the BER of a harvester IN THE CRAFTING PHASE, NOT IN THE PLACEMENT PHASE. I know very well the connection between resource concentration and actual extraction rate.

I'll shoot again: you say in the referred guide that the max BER for a solar generator is 15 - I take it that it means that's the maximum you can achieve. With good resources and - I"ll agree to that - not the maximum experimentation points I can't get past the 9 mark.
Sorry if I missed part of the question, still you should not necro old threads but create a new one 8)

Yes, that is max you can achieve.

Currently there is some debate whether it is or is not possible to achieve BER 45 on Elite harvies. Obviously it is, unless for most deadly there is a nasty bugs with the Artisan components. Some crafters, having really old components from the one-day bug when it was possible to craft a lot of things to 100 %, have been able to boost then up to BER 45. So, if SOE fixes that nasty bug, that makes a 5.00 component being not 5.00 but probably 4.999999, we will have to revise the numbers.

/Zimoon

Holden
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Post by Holden » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:12 pm

balazsk wrote:With good resources and - I"ll agree to that - not the maximum experimentation points I can't get past the 9 mark.
You can't get past the 9 mark because 47 is just too low. You could have perfect resources now and still not get past 9 or 10, even with expertise. It's like someone with a level 47 combat toon wondering why it's not possible to kill the same creatures as a level 70.

The initial value you get on assembly is due to your low Architect Assembly score. The reason your experiments are more likely to fail is due to your low Architect Experimentation score. As you level up, both will increase. The reason your personal harvesters are able to be maxed now is that they use Artisan Assembly/Experimentation, and you capped that at level 18.

From 47-53, you won't see any change.

At 54 you get +20/+20 to assembly/experimentation, so try again and see if the results are significantly better. It might be possible to cap BER at this stage if you have both expertise and a +20 assembly/experimentation suit, though some assembly PUPs would probably also help.

At 70 you get another +20/+20. It's possible to cap BER with only expertise at this stage, but you'll use all your points (barring Amazing successes) to cap it.

At 84 you get the last +10/+10, so it's possible to cap BER without expertise. With expertise, you can cap BER and increase the hopper size a bit.
Zimoon wrote:Currently there is some debate whether it is or is not possible to achieve BER 45 on Elite harvies. Obviously it is, unless for most deadly there is a nasty bugs with the Artisan components. Some crafters, having really old components from the one-day bug when it was possible to craft a lot of things to 100 %, have been able to boost then up to BER 45. So, if SOE fixes that nasty bug, that makes a 5.00 component being not 5.00 but probably 4.999999, we will have to revise the numbers.
Actually, it's about reaching 45 on Crafting Stations. Harvesters really are capped at the current known values, including elites at 44.

And being one of those old crafters, and the one currently resurrecting the topic on SOE's forum, I just want to clear up one bit: Crafting Day wasn't a bug, it was SOE's attempt at changing the crafting system. It was rather poorly thought out and almost as badly received as NGE; SOE rolled it back the next day.

In short, the revised crafting system always required 10 points to max a line of experimentation, even if resource limitations capped the line at, say, 30%. For single line items, or items where only a single line mattered, it didn't really matter. For items that had multiple valuable experimental lines, it was a tremendous nerf. Food, meds, BE, weapons, armor...all would have had a huge drop in quality. Experimentation suits would have become mandatory for getting even moderately good results on a multi-line item.

The only benefit of the Crafting Day rules was that Amazings on experimentation allowed you to move beyond the limits of the resources. It was basically the first incarnation of what are now the "Resource Processing" and "Advanced Resource Refinement" boxes of expertise - a resource buff.

Since Architect only has single line for almost everything, we made out like bandits for that day. This was the first time we discovered the max caps for personal/medium/heavy were 5/11/14 - prior to this, it was thought that 4/10/13 were the caps. A lot of servers were able to produce perfect +45.0 crafting stations because they were able to produce perfect artisan electronics and droid storage containers.

All told, the current incarnation of the resource buff is a far superior process, especially because it didn't come married to a tremendous devaluation of experimenting.

And you've nailed the 5.0/4.999999 part spot on - current electronics are displaying a rounded off value, but using an unrounded one in crafting.

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Post by Zimoon » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:44 pm

Holden wrote:
Zimoon wrote:Currently there is some debate whether it is or is not possible to achieve BER 45 on Elite harvies. Obviously it is, unless for most deadly there is a nasty bugs with the Artisan components. Some crafters, having really old components from the one-day bug when it was possible to craft a lot of things to 100 %, have been able to boost then up to BER 45. So, if SOE fixes that nasty bug, that makes a 5.00 component being not 5.00 but probably 4.999999, we will have to revise the numbers.
Actually, it's about reaching 45 on Crafting Stations. Harvesters really are capped at the current known values, including elites at 44.
True, I realized that after some more coffee and then it was a little late to go edit my post, then I forgot it.

Great with some insight on historical things, thanks a lot /deep bow

/Z

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Savacc
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Post by Savacc » Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:32 am

Thanks Holden for clearing things up. I was around on "Crafting Day" and even logged in and played. However, the publish notes that day indicated that the new crafting system being implemented would be changed back the next day. So I foolishly decided I wouldnt craft at all that day. I wish someone had clued me in, but I missed it all.

Balazsk, just to echo Holden, the reason you can not make the max BER harvesters and only have 9 boxes to experiment with is because you are too low of level. In the FAQ stickied at the top of this page, I note that making harvesters is the one place where you must be a master architect to make the best.

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