Another question about heavy harvesters

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Paria
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Another question about heavy harvesters

Post by Paria » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:10 am

Hello everyone, it's nice to join this community :P (english is not my native language, sorry in advance about this)

Arnn Stardust was a Master Armorsmith / Master Smuggler / Imperial Colonel on Kauri and specialized in faction armors, several years ago.
With two friends we have decided to come back on SWG and choose to be transfered on a more populated server: Chimaerae.
He was converted as Arnh Stardust a level 58 trader that just finished grinding two days ago.
Right now Arnh Stardust is Trader/Structure 90, his expertise being in harvest branch + a mix of artisan & structure.

I am focused on our harvesters, elites doesn't exist yet when we were playing.
I have done the schematics of various ber21 elite mining sub-components, my first elites (mineral) have a ber44.

I encounter one problem with a heavy mining sub-component: Turbo Fluidic Drilling Pump Unit that I can experiment only at ber6.
I can experiment the two others (Heavy Harvesting Mechanism and Ore Mining Unit ) to ber7.
The resources that I use are:
. Steel: Geolla, Duralloy Steel (Chimaera) an excellent "Current Resource".
. Chemical: Chemical Compound (recycled)
. Inert Gas: I don't have the name here but it does not matter I think.
When I look closer a couple of schematics are very similar Heavy Harvesting Mechanism and Turbo Fluidic Drilling Pump Unit, btw they appear together in the same patch.
Both schematics require Steel+Chemical so I use my best steel (rating 990) and my worst chemical (but without any HR/SR/UT).
Doing this Heavy Harvesting Mechanism reach ber7 while Turbo Fluidic Drilling Pump Unit seems capped at ber6, having 11 experimentation points do not help here.
What I am doing wrong?
Arnh Stardust (Armorsmith or Shipwright) & Mamaria (Droids and Beasts crafter) in ORION on Lok (Chimaera server).

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Savacc
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Re: Another question about heavy harvesters

Post by Savacc » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:35 pm

Ill go in game and make one of the Turbo Pumps to see if I have a problem too, but my guess is that you are not getting an "amazing success" when you make them. All of the subcomponant schematics for the Heavy Harvesters are "bugged" and can not be experimented to 100%, only 99%. There are several schematics like this in the game, since way back when you played before, and they have never been fixed. In order to get these subcomponants to BER 7, you must get at least one "amazing success" while experimenting them. If you only get "great successes" you get a part that is 99% and only BER 6. With just one "amazing" you still get 99%, but it pushes a server side value, that we dont see, higher and you get BER 7.

Here is a step, by step guide to making Harvesters, though you seem to have all the other basics down.
http://www.swgcraft.co.uk/forums/viewto ... f=15&t=929

Here is a guide to making Crafting Stations that explains the "bug" in more detail, since all the schematics in making Crafting Stations have the same "bug"
http://www.swgcraft.co.uk/forums/viewto ... =15&t=1338

Edit- I made a Turbo Fluidic Pump and got it to BER 7, got an "amazing" on the first box, then filled in the rest, got all "greats", and it came out to BER 7.

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Paria
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Re: Another question about heavy harvesters

Post by Paria » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:05 am

Thanks a lot for your answer :D
I have followed both your guides on stations and harvesters and that helped me a lot.
On the opposite three consecutive amazing success (while crafting a station) result in a lesser rating than with only two or one amazing success,
I was surprised to get one experimentation point left btw :lol:
Arnh Stardust (Armorsmith or Shipwright) & Mamaria (Droids and Beasts crafter) in ORION on Lok (Chimaera server).

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Savacc
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Re: Another question about heavy harvesters

Post by Savacc » Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:41 am

Paria wrote:Thanks a lot for your answer :D
I have followed both your guides on stations and harvesters and that helped me a lot.
On the opposite three consecutive amazing success (while crafting a station) result in a lesser rating than with only two or one amazing success,
I was surprised to get one experimentation point left btw :lol:
No, when experimenting a single line out to the end, it will be your resources that determine how well do and the rating (if the item has one). It is only when you divide your points and experiment two lines that you really see a difference between getting one, two, three or more amazings instead of great successes. For instance, when making Harvesters, with the right resources, everyone makes a BER 14 Heavy Harvester or a BER 44 Elite, because that only takes one line to experiment. The real difference in Harvesters is on the Hopper size. Getting extra "amazings" means bigger Hoppers.

If you took the Artisan Expertise boxes, and have eleven points to spend in Artisan, you will normally have a point left over when making Crafting Stations. You could have two if you got "amazings" on eight boxes.

Paria,
Were you able to make a BER 7 Turbo Pump?

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Paria
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Re: Another question about heavy harvesters

Post by Paria » Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:52 am

I was not level 90 yet when I have crafted stations for friends and me.
I will try probably tonight (euro-time) in a crafting city.
Arnh Stardust (Armorsmith or Shipwright) & Mamaria (Droids and Beasts crafter) in ORION on Lok (Chimaera server).

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Paria
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Re: Another question about heavy harvesters

Post by Paria » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:21 am

Savacc wrote:Were you able to make a BER 7 Turbo Pump?
Finally yes and it was instructing :mrgreen:

I went to a friend house in a "crafting" city to create the Turbo Pump schematic.
My first try gave me a ber6 pump because of 3 amazing succes.
At second try one amazing succes only and this allowed me to reach finally ber7, yay!

But I think that I have to change my way of experimenting, as you described.
After one amazing succes fill all the boxes instead of filling boxes 2 by 2 (or 3 by 3) from start to end.
When I was Armorsmith several years ago, this method can give experimentation failures.
I have zero attachements (just bonus given by issued backpack/rings/necklace) so an human trader/structure 90 with a harvest+architect expertise.
Strangely I did not get any failure since I have returned, do assembly/experimentation failures have been removed from game?
Perhaps this is an Architect privilege and I will encounter failures again when I respec Armorsmith?

Buggy schematic anyway, I had a similar (I would say identical) problem during crafting station experimentation.

I can create max ber deep crust, heavy gas and heavy water for my friends and me now.
Problem solved, thanks again Savacc :D
Arnh Stardust (Armorsmith or Shipwright) & Mamaria (Droids and Beasts crafter) in ORION on Lok (Chimaera server).

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Savacc
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Re: Another question about heavy harvesters

Post by Savacc » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:32 pm

Hmmm,
Three "amazings" should have made a BER 7 pump, unless you got an experimentation result less then "great" afterwards. As you noted, we only get "great" and "amazing" results now, if you have the extra expertise boxes and are lvl 90. They did remove "critical failures" for Assembly. Architects and Shipwrights had the benefit for a long time, but several years ago they extended it to all professions. "Critical failures" for Experimentation are still in the game, but when they added the Expertise bonus to Experimentation Skill, they somehow "broke" them. My theory is that they are adding the Expertise bonus in before the "critical failure" is checked for, and the bonus is high enough, along with base skill, that its no longer possible to get the "crit fails".

In any event, getting three "amazings" should not result in a lessor product then only one "amazing". The system does not work that way, I have never had it happen to me and not heard of that from anyone else. I dont make a lot of the pumps, but have made lots of Crafting Stations. Did you say you are not lvl 90 yet? That might be part of the problem, if you are getting "fair" or "good" experimentation results. If you dont have the Expertise boxes that could do it too. If the problem persists after you are cl 90 and have the expertise, then its possible your character is "bugged". :shock: Let's hope that's not the case. :?

toobin
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Re: Another question about heavy harvesters

Post by toobin » Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:18 pm

I, too, am having difficulties in getting the BER 7 OMU.

I've hit 4 amazing successes on a 29% assembly and still come up short. I also craft with max tools and station inside a research city.

My materials:

Vydo Mustafarian Steel (HR 977, SR 992, UT 925)
Inert Gas (OQ 252 - but this shouldn't matter, right?)

Please help :) Thanks in advance.

Multiple amazings, no BER 7 example:
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/8070 ... t0011u.jpg
Last edited by toobin on Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Savacc
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Re: Another question about heavy harvesters

Post by Savacc » Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:58 pm

Just eyeballing your steel I would have guessed it is not good enough, running the math confirms it.

The experimental properties for the mining units are HR 25%, SR 25% and UT 50% so
HR 977 x .25 = 244.25
SR 992 x .25 = 248
UT 925 x .50 = 462.5
add them up and you get 954.75

The Resource Processing and Advanced Resource Refinement Expertise boxes give you +40 to that for a 994.75, close but not good enough to "cap"

toobin
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Re: Another question about heavy harvesters

Post by toobin » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:03 pm

Savacc wrote:Just eyeballing your steel I would have guessed it is not good enough, running the math confirms it.

The experimental properties for the mining units are HR 25%, SR 25% and UT 50% so
HR 977 x .25 = 244.25
SR 992 x .25 = 248
UT 925 x .50 = 462.5
add them up and you get 954.75

The Resource Processing and Advanced Resource Refinement Expertise boxes give you +40 to that for a 994.75, close but not good enough to "cap"
Thanks for the help - I did notice that the UT was a little low. However, with that many amazing rolls, shouldn't it hit 7? (check the sshot i just added above). And yes I am spec'd for refinement.

Will I just not be able to make a BER 7 using that steel? Thanks again.

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Savacc
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Re: Another question about heavy harvesters

Post by Savacc » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:23 pm

The quality of your resources determines the quality of your end product. The only thing that improves the quality of your resources is the expertise boxes. Experimentation, and the various things that buff Experimentation, can not improve the ceiling, or maximum possible result for your resources, it is actually the opposite. Experimentation is a random variable designed to give you results that may be less then perfect. Experimentation introduces risk into crafting. At the beginning of this game there was a lot more risk then there is now, the devs have toned it down a lot.

Just to review:
Assembly gives you a starting point for your product based on your resource quality.
Experimentation improves your product up to the maximum of your resource quality (hopefully).

So that steel will never make you a 100% Mining Unit, only 99.475. You need 100% to get it to BER 7.

toobin
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Re: Another question about heavy harvesters

Post by toobin » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:45 pm

Savacc wrote:The quality of your resources determines the quality of your end product. The only thing that improves the quality of your resources is the expertise boxes. Experimentation, and the various things that buff Experimentation, can not improve the ceiling, or maximum possible result for your resources, it is actually the opposite. Experimentation is a random variable designed to give you results that may be less then perfect. Experimentation introduces risk into crafting. At the beginning of this game there was a lot more risk then there is now, the devs have toned it down a lot.

Just to review:
Assembly gives you a starting point for your product based on your resource quality.
Experimentation improves your product up to the maximum of your resource quality (hopefully).

So that steel will never make you a 100% Mining Unit, only 99.475. You need 100% to get it to BER 7.
*Lightbulb* AHHHHHHHHH I get it now :)

So let's say I use *some other steel* with qualities like this mustafarian intrusive ore:

Quadeesifism (HR 980, SR 931, UT 985)

The calculations would be:

HR: 980 * .25 = 245
SR: 931 * .25 = 232.75
UT: 985 * .50 = 492.5

and the sum would be 970.25

With the +40 from expertise, I would be capped and able to make a BER 7 with a single amazing roll - right?

God i love this game.

Imperial Outpost
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Re: Another question about heavy harvesters

Post by Imperial Outpost » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:11 pm

toobin wrote:
*Lightbulb* AHHHHHHHHH I get it now :)

So let's say I use *some other steel* with qualities like this mustafarian intrusive ore:

Quadeesifism (HR 980, SR 931, UT 985)

The calculations would be:

HR: 980 * .25 = 245
SR: 931 * .25 = 232.75
UT: 985 * .50 = 492.5

and the sum would be 970.25

With the +40 from expertise, I would be capped and able to make a BER 7 with a single amazing roll - right?

God i love this game.
I don't normally push my site on here, but I think you'd benefit from a look - http://traderswg.com.

I ran through the schematic for Ore Mining Units on Bloodfin and there's resources in-game you can harvest right now to make a BER 7 unit:

Image

toobin
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Re: Another question about heavy harvesters

Post by toobin » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:07 pm

Imperial Outpost wrote:
I don't normally push my site on here, but I think you'd benefit from a look - http://traderswg.com.

I ran through the schematic for Ore Mining Units on Bloodfin and there's resources in-game you can harvest right now to make a BER 7 unit:
Nice site and thanks for the aide. :)

redwhitenblue
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Re: Another question about heavy harvesters

Post by redwhitenblue » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:34 pm

Savacc wrote: In any event, getting three "amazings" should not result in a lessor product then only one "amazing". The system does not work that way, I have never had it happen to me and not heard of that from anyone else. I dont make a lot of the pumps, but have made lots of Crafting Stations. Did you say you are not lvl 90 yet? That might be part of the problem, if you are getting "fair" or "good" experimentation results. If you dont have the Expertise boxes that could do it too. If the problem persists after you are cl 90 and have the expertise, then its possible your character is "bugged". :shock: Let's hope that's not the case. :?

Actually Savacc I have had this happen to me numerous times when making Crafting Stations, and trust me I followed your guide to the T. I have tried mentioning this problem before and most everyone that I talk to tells me it's impossible but I have seen it with my own eyes. As best I can describe this is what happens: I use a ridiculously high CD copper (current copper is 995) and some gem or ore plus capped components made by UncleFester to make the initial craft. Then I experiment one box at a time in my research city and get multiple amazings ending in a craft that is less than 44.999992 and two experimentation points left over. I then take the exact same resources and components to a public crafting station to avoid the city bonus, drink port until I get a single amazing then finish off with great successes and end with a 44.999992 station and only one experimentation point unused. My observation is that too many amazings prevents one of the boxes from 'resetting'. I have not had this happen to me when crafting anything else on many different traders so maybe my character is bugged. :(
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