WeaponSmith Insight and WeaponSmith Keen Understanding

Ask & answer questions, submit ideas or post guides on the Weaponsmith Expertise.

Moderators: Crafting Forum Moderators, Forum Moderator

Locked
User avatar
Oceans
Novice Crafter
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:32 am

WeaponSmith Insight and WeaponSmith Keen Understanding

Post by Oceans » Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:16 pm

Do I need WeaponSmith Insight and WeaponSmith Keen Understanding in my expertise? What exactly does this benefit one to take this in their expertise. In other words, what the heck does this do for me?
:
:
After reading the beginners crafting guide, I read that "the second branch from left (and right) improves the final Complexity, which means reduced production/crafting time."
So, in other words, these two boxes do not factor into the quality of the item you are crafting? It only helps in making the crafting time less while waiting for the item to finish crafting, and a factory to take less time manufacturing the items?

User avatar
Savacc
Architect & Shipwright Forum Moderator
Posts: 1207
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:45 pm
Location: Central Oregon

Re: WeaponSmith Insight and WeaponSmith Keen Understanding

Post by Savacc » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:30 am

No you do not need these boxes, take something else.

The last I knew, they were believed to be bugged and not working.

User avatar
Zimoon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4817
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 6:55 am
Location: Stockholm, SE
Contact:

Re: WeaponSmith Insight and WeaponSmith Keen Understanding

Post by Zimoon » Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:42 pm

Savacc wrote:No you do not need these boxes, take something else.

The last I knew, they were believed to be bugged and not working.
I think they are working as intended, as least I am told so, and that the bonus stays with the structure until it is pulled, as with harvesters. I have a memory that it once was bugged and a fix mentioned we needed to pull and out the factories down again.

Are the bonuses useful? Not for a high-end Trader, no. At least not to carry as a permanent template. What could be done is to take them, put down the factories, and respec. The bonuses should stick also over a structure transfer so... 8)

But, I do not know off of the top of my head how big a bonus it is. I can only imagine that while running a batch of 1000 of some component it may shave off enough to be worthwhile, but if it just shaves off from 36 to 30 hours and not down to 24 hours, then it is up to your play style, is it not? It wouldn't help me, no way :lol:

Zimoon

RokN
Novice Crafter
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:28 am

Re: WeaponSmith Insight and WeaponSmith Keen Understanding

Post by RokN » Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:34 am

Complexity is supposed to be a factor in the experimentation roll as well, so lower = better.

Large
Novice Crafter
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:55 am

Re: WeaponSmith Insight and WeaponSmith Keen Understanding

Post by Large » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:19 am

I thought this aswell. That the less complex the item is for you the bettter it will be, basically. :)

User avatar
Zimoon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4817
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 6:55 am
Location: Stockholm, SE
Contact:

Re: WeaponSmith Insight and WeaponSmith Keen Understanding

Post by Zimoon » Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:44 am

What we know Complexity rules two things only: required level of tool and crafting station, and creation time.

For a fact we know that most schematics you learn have an increasing Complexity, with few exceptions. We also know that the highest complexity, level 65 for "Deed for: Guardian Mark II Droid" and level 60 for some personal shields and two combat droid deeds, are no harder to cap than any lower complexity items.

If there are other data available, please post links to these discussions so we can review them and reproduce the tests that have been posted; if something cannot be reproduced it is hard to believe that it is a fact, right?

This is from the Beginner's Guide for Traders:
Notice that each schematic has a Complexity. The higher complexities require you to use specialized crafting tools and crafting stations --- stations are described in chapter 8.

Complexity vs. Equipment:

Code: Select all

 1  - 15 General Crafting Tool
16 - 20 Specialized Crafting Tool
21 - 25 Specialized Crafting Tool + Public Crafting Station
26 -    Specialized Crafting Tool + Private Crafting Station
Specialized crafting tools: Armor and Clothing; Food and Chemical; Starship; Structure and Furniture; and Weapon, Droid and General (WDG). Specialized crafting tools are sometimes called elite crafting tools.
Complexity versus Time

Each experimentation dice roll adds one point to the schematic's default complexity. This results in a final complexity which is read at the crafting window; it is also read at manufacture schematics. It makes no difference if just one, or if several experimentation boxes are used in a dice roll, a roll adds only one (1) point to the final complexity.

When the item is readied the final complexity points translates to processing time:
  • Manual crafting: 2 seconds per point
  • Factory run: 8 seconds per point
And notice the discussion on experimenting versus complexity under the headline How many boxes per dice roll?




Remember that very often players state "truths" that rather are their biased gut feelings; when asked for some data or how to reproduce their experience we are ridiculed with "you don't trust me who has crafted hundreds of these" but they never reply to the obvious: what are they basing their feelings on. In the other hand, some guys are sincere and go out of their way to confirm or cancel their statement when asked for details, sometimes they are right and have truly found an old misconception or something that has changed, but most often the gut feeling was in error. SOE Devs have occasionally replied to some statements at forum in terms of "superstition" and "phase of the moon theories".

That said, we veterans always listen to such statements but we also question them. Do not take our questions as "brush offs", they are not. We are indeed interested, very interested, to find out if anything is changed and to correct ourselves, but be patient with us, it is very rare these days to find true news 8)



/Zimoon

User avatar
Zimoon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4817
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 6:55 am
Location: Stockholm, SE
Contact:

Re: WeaponSmith Insight and WeaponSmith Keen Understanding

Post by Zimoon » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:13 am

Oceans wrote:Do I need WeaponSmith Insight and WeaponSmith Keen Understanding in my expertise? What exactly does this benefit one to take this in their expertise. In other words, what the heck does this do for me?
:
:
After reading the beginners crafting guide, I read that "the second branch from left (and right) improves the final Complexity, which means reduced production/crafting time."
So, in other words, these two boxes do not factor into the quality of the item you are crafting? It only helps in making the crafting time less while waiting for the item to finish crafting, and a factory to take less time manufacturing the items?
Savacc is correct ... this is not the most useful expertise, but let me elaborate:
If you constantly churn out batches of let us say 1000 components and they take 28 hours, yes, then if the reduction would take it down to less than 24 hours it would be useful. By that you would be able to start another batch the next day rather than wait two days whereof that factory has been idling for 20 hours. Even if you game-play permits you to start another batch late the second day you will have an idling factory quite often ... assuming you do not go up in the middle of the night and.... 8)

So, is it possible to reduce the time this much?
Fact 1: max expertise reduction is -6 complexity points which equals 48 seconds in a factory (13h 20m for 1000 items).
Fact 2: 24 hours equals 86,400 seconds which for a manufacture schematic and 1000 items is 10.8 complexity.
The reply is then: indeed, but only for schematics with a final complexity that is 11 or or above and that makes it possible for you, with your playing style, to start another run rather than wait another day. You will find several schematics with a final complexity that is higher but the cut down time still ends in the middle of your beauty sleep.

This essentially it boils down to: if you can squeeze in another factory batch by this expertise, yes, you win that extra batch and you save that day/half-a-day/whatever.

However, it may be good to know that if you take this expertise on your trader and put down the factory the bonus sticks until you pull it up. Whether it sticks if you pack it up or not I do not know, but as bonuses on harvesters stick until it is redeeded so it is also in this case. Hence, if you feel for it, do some planning, take the expertise and put down the factories you planned for, and respec to another template. You can also do /structureTransfer to another toon and the bonus will stick. Sometimes you will benefit from the bonus and sometimes not ... this is your call :)

Zimoon


PS: I have not done it this way myself ... I am slowly beginning to think that I didn't realize the the point when I once setup my plant 8)

User avatar
Savacc
Architect & Shipwright Forum Moderator
Posts: 1207
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:45 pm
Location: Central Oregon

Re: WeaponSmith Insight and WeaponSmith Keen Understanding

Post by Savacc » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:20 pm

In the back of my mind, Z, there is this thought that complexity does have some affect on the experimentation roll. Or it may be more accurate to say, that at one time, it used to. :roll:

Certainly now, a master level crafter, with the expertize option (Hypothesis) and a crafting suit, is never going to see any affect complexity might have. However, a lower level crafter, without the expertize or a suit, might be adversely affected by making schematics of higher (for them) complexity.

Because I am certain that there is no difference to a cl 90 (or no measurable difference) I would still not recommend these expertize boxes.

User avatar
Zimoon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4817
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 6:55 am
Location: Stockholm, SE
Contact:

Re: WeaponSmith Insight and WeaponSmith Keen Understanding

Post by Zimoon » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:00 pm

a few things:
  1. the expertise text clearly states that it is the factory time that is reduced. in fact the line as such is said to pertain to manufacturing.

    this is not a conclusive proof, that a text reads something, just that now it is no "a" text but several. we know very well that SOE wording sometimes slips, but even then it does not flip white to black but shades of gray. compare resource refinery for example 4% is not 4% but a flat value that resembles 4% if you already are at 100% 8)
  2. I also remember those discussions -- around CU was it? -- whether complexity had an impact or not. if my memory serves me nobody proved it correct but many veteran crafters rather held it for less certain. I did not count myself to the academia of crafting those days :lol:

    those days lots of people also suggested that the worse MA the worse risk for failure. also this was never canceled or conformed.
  3. go craft a bunch of "invasion tools" ... they have very low complexity (5) ... and use as many boxes possible when you experiment ... then you will see an increased failure rate ... all the way to critical. hardly caused by complexity, is it?
that said, discussing is one thing, presenting a statement supported with solid data is another. all games are surrounded by rumors and supersticion. sometimes something turns out right, but the lot remains hearsay :)

Zimoon

PS: do you remember when it was said to improve crafting if the character sat down? it was thought that mind-drain had an impact ... if anyone remembers mind in swg any longer?

User avatar
Savacc
Architect & Shipwright Forum Moderator
Posts: 1207
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:45 pm
Location: Central Oregon

Re: WeaponSmith Insight and WeaponSmith Keen Understanding

Post by Savacc » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:09 pm

I had forgotten the MA bit. If Lunariel had not been the one that advocated it, I would have never given it any credence.

When they removed critical failures in Assembly, it is probable that some of these other factors were removed as well. Certainly, when Expertize was added, the bonuses to Assembly and Experimentation rendered nearly all lessor factors in the rolls moot. It is possible they were removed then too.

I remember the sitting down argument, but never bought into it.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests